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Controlled TNT usage

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Garquille

Well-known member
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Dec 24, 2010
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I've always wanted to be able to use TNT, since I've destroyed what I'm guessing to be at least 300,000 blocks and still only 60% done. It's why I've only played rarely.

I did some searching and found these 2 bukkit plugins. The first one seems much better but I don't know if it's updated.

http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/se...-creeper-restrictions-modifications-818.8145/

http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/mech-miningtnt-v0-4-choose-what-tnt-destroys-953.3569/

I imagine the primary use of them would be to clear land. This means that we would need to be able to acquire them in large enough amounts in small enough costs for them to be useful so it's actually worth it to use them instead of just paying for a fraction of time cut. And you lose money by buying the tnt and then in lost blocks that you can't collect and sell or use.

I'd like to help with the science behind all of that if adding in TNT is supported.
 
I can understand why you'd want to use this to clear large areas of land in near enough no time at all.
If it were to be used, you'd have to be under supervision from a mod at all times.

I'm sure if you needed help clearing land etc, then people on the server would be more than happy to help you out.
 
The permissions can be used to only allow trusted members the ability to detonate them.

An alternative is to only allow mods to detonate them but allow players to place them. But this can be a little unrealistic because it's more efficient to detonate them individually or in small groups, so only allowing a mod here would be time consuming for them, maybe to the point where it would be faster if both just mined. So unless tnt have a near nonexistent price so tnt efficiency wouldn't matter much, that might not be a good option.

It's not much of a risk to allow trusted non-staff to detonate considering big brother can rollback specific players during x amount of time.

I suppose the difficulty in figuring who is trusted could be approached with a certain sum of blocks destroyed & built, that way there is a large time investment involved and any devious plans can be rolled back even if they are that desperate.
 
I've cleared several mountains during my time on the server, never have I needed help or tnt. Want to blow something up? Read the forums, then you would know about the past and upcoming d-day. Otherwise, tnt will never be used outside of that day.
 
This sounds like it would be more hurtlful than helpful. TNT is blocked for a reason, we dont want to give people the ability to do massive amounts of griefing. Im not sure if this feature is still enabled, but each time TNT/fire is placed, it is logged with the mods. It looks a little something like this:

(michaelavena) placed TNT at <coordinates here>

That would apear on a mod/admin/operators screen for each block of TNT placed. This would get extremly anoying when placed in large quantities. Another problem is who can you trust? TNT, to my kowledge, has never been allowed on this server. (Other than the designated TNT tuesdays/dday) If you dont know what those designated days are, its a day when the map is backed up and we can do whatever we want. Keep in mind that the mods are here to help us, but they still want time to play too; not spend time tracking and rolling back people who are abusing TNT. You cant tell who trusted people are just by blocks destroyed/placed. The most trusted people on the server are the region managers and higher. The builder rank is also the defualt rank, which means that anyone can be a builder. We definatly can just trust anyone. MrJangles, Staticfactory and Lofp have spent alot of time and effort to make sure this server is grief-free. TNT would almost certainly ruin this in just a few days, if not less. Its better to not allow TNT/fire at all. Better safe than sorry right?
 
This sounds like it would be more hurtlful than helpful. TNT is blocked for a reason, we dont want to give people the ability to do massive amounts of griefing. Im not sure if this feature is still enabled, but each time TNT/fire is placed, it is logged with the mods. It looks a little something like this:

(michaelavena) placed TNT at <coordinates here>

That would apear on a mod/admin/operators screen for each block of TNT placed. This would get extremly anoying when placed in large quantities. Another problem is who can you trust? TNT, to my kowledge, has never been allowed on this server. (Other than the designated TNT tuesdays/dday) If you dont know what those designated days are, its a day when the map is backed up and we can do whatever we want. Keep in mind that the mods are here to help us, but they still want time to play too; not spend time tracking and rolling back people who are abusing TNT. You cant tell who trusted people are just by blocks destroyed/placed. The most trusted people on the server are the region managers and higher. The builder rank is also the defualt rank, which means that anyone can be a builder. We definatly can just trust anyone. MrJangles, Staticfactory and Lofp have spent alot of time and effort to make sure this server is grief-free. TNT would almost certainly ruin this in just a few days, if not less. Its better to not allow TNT/fire at all. Better safe than sorry right?

It's better well-designed than arbitrarily safe. You didn't really explain why you oppose any of my points, you just said "no, this".

The console notification matter is something I don't know about. I'm not sure what its purpose is. Is it only for live-feed? You can remove it and still check who placed any block or what was destroyed by who with big brother.

I've cleared several mountains during my time on the server, never have I needed help or tnt. Want to blow something up? Read the forums, then you would know about the past and upcoming d-day. Otherwise, tnt will never be used outside of that day.

I can spend ridiculously absorbent amounts of time on things too, and do, but that doesn't mean it's reasonable or ideal.

As for the administrators stance about 4 months ago;

TNT isn't possible to manage yet, but we hope to have it available one day.

As peaceful as it is this what a creative server is all about. We'll be adding PVP areas later so we'll have options for mobs if you want a little action.
 
It's a videogame dude. Don't complain when something on it takes time. Video games are designed to kill time. That is all.

Carry on.
 
You can dig alot with a little team work. MadeInChina69 and I just flattened out a pretty big area and it took us a few hours, but we eventually got it done. Nothing is impossible. Get a few friends or just other people on the server to help you out.
 
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I do appreciate where you're coming from with your point of view here Garquille but at the same time as michaelavena said nothing is impossible if you put your mind to it and, arguably, the fact that we do things the hard way here without the use of TNT, fire or give commands makes our epic builds all the more, well, epic.

When you take a look at some of the stuff on the server its actually quite phenomenal what people have build without any help at all (jeff's mountain, godspeedz colloseum, indigo's mansion etc etc) and when we work as a team there's almost no limit to what we can achieve (interstate, gold logo etc.)

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that giving some players limited tnt access would not only cause some friction between people (if he can use it then why can't I?) but would also "devalue" any creations made with its help (for lack of a better word). For example, if someone like gods was given tnt to flatten a huge area for his colloseum then I'm certain lots of people would say "Yeah thats pretty cool but you'd never be able to do that without help." It also means we always have a level playing field to make comparisons of projects whereas if tnt were incorporated it would be like yeah this is cool but check out this other build, that was built pre-tnt!

So to summarise, while I accept that it could make some projects easier (I know flattening land can get a little tedious :) ) to get started, the end result would be much less satisfying and anyway Garquille, I'm sure an experienced and seasoned addict such as yourself would have no trouble at all with clearing a massive area and if you ever need any help with it I'm sure the server is full of willing volunteers
 
It's a videogame dude. Don't complain when something on it takes time. Video games are designed to kill time. That is all.

Carry on.

I'm not complaining. I'm posting a suggestion for a potential improvement.

Games are designed for a variety of purposes and they can be played with a variety of intentions. Limiting it to "killing time" is a grave injustice.

You can dig alot with a little team work. MadeInChina69 and I just flattened out a pretty big area and it took us a few hours, but we eventually got it done. Nothing is impossible. Get a few friends or just other people on the server to help you out.

I know it's all very possible. It's not like I haven't cleared an immense amount of land myself. That doesn't affect whether or not a change is okay.

I do appreciate where you're coming from with your point of view here Garquille but at the same time as michaelavena said nothing is impossible if you put your mind to it and, arguably, the fact that we do things the hard way here without the use of TNT, fire or give commands makes our epic builds all the more, well, epic.

Can you explain why warps, invincibility, unbreakable tools, no hostile mobs, and currency are any more acceptable than TNT?

I absolutely understand the value of both mechanical effort and cognitive effort in a game, but only one of them is necessary in Minecraft, and that's mechanical. The purpose of this in games is to prolong goals and act as a transference of cognitive effort into results. Again, only one of them is necessary in minecraft.

While prolongation and determination are important, the amount necessary can range from good to bad. We already start off with much more mechanical than cognitive effort, and more prolongation than... well, no technical skills, creating an even bigger ratio. This isn't bad; equivalent balance is not necessary. But we're also cutting out a mechanical relief option, yet again increasing the ratio. If the ratio is too high, it only becomes harmful, and vice versa. It is counteracted at least some, though:

Warps, invincibility, unbreakable tools, no hostile mobs, and currency are also forms of mechanical relief. You can create a very long chain of more demanding accomplishments than most of anything you can do on this server. That doesn't make them better.

The reasons to leave TNT out that I can think of are: A) It's a key component in lowering the mechanical ratio beyond a good balance that is virtually impossible to reconcile with other changes, B) It is not currently an important enough matter, or a solution isn't yet apparent and is thus put on the backburner (not ignored), C) Complacency, D), Irrationality.

So adversity may need to address A now that we've broken down the matter into more holistic reasons for whether or not this restriction is ideal.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that giving some players limited tnt access would not only cause some friction between people (if he can use it then why can't I?)

Any friction would only be good for improvement or be irrationality. It would be clear cut why they can't use it, and if they still oppose it, they can seek to improve the server even more. If they don't, then it's their own complacency or irrationality and is not relevant to the server.

but would also "devalue" any creations made with its help (for lack of a better word). For example, if someone like gods was given tnt to flatten a huge area for his colloseum then I'm certain lots of people would say "Yeah thats pretty cool but you'd never be able to do that without help." It also means we always have a level playing field to make comparisons of projects whereas if tnt were incorporated it would be like yeah this is cool but check out this other build, that was built pre-tnt!

So to summarise, while I accept that it could make some projects easier (I know flattening land can get a little tedious :) ) to get started, the end result would be much less satisfying and anyway Garquille, I'm sure an experienced and seasoned addict such as yourself would have no trouble at all with clearing a massive area and if you ever need any help with it I'm sure the server is full of willing volunteers

This is really a classic example of revision vs. history. I see it a lot in games. But progression is forward. Forward is good. Retaining something that ideally would have never been as such from the beginning is not good. So what perhaps needs to be assessed in these situations is whether or not it was ideal design from the start or if it's so small that it's not worth the time to change. The latter isn't too relevant to us.



I can't tell if I'm insane or profusely objective.
 
Can you explain why warps, invincibility, unbreakable tools, no hostile mobs, and currency are any more acceptable than TNT?

The simple fact is that this is a creative server and not a survival server.
Currency is used for players to buy materials from each other or from the shop in game (to speed up the building process), however caps still need to be earned and are not seen as a way of just spawning items.

You've already said that using a mod to allow certain players to use TNT could solve the griefing problem.
This in itself causes a problem, how will it be decided who can be trusted to use TNT, that brings you back to what Yennage said about friction between players. When you've got players arguing and complaining about TNT usage and new players join, it simply doesn't make the server look great.

The reasons to leave TNT out that I can think of are: A) It's a key component in lowering the mechanical ratio beyond a good balance that is virtually impossible to reconcile with other changes, B) It is not currently an important enough matter, or a solution isn't yet apparent and is thus put on the backburner (not ignored), C) Complacency, D), Irrationality.

These are very valid reasons and currently I believe the reason to leave TNT out is (B), in the way that a solution isn't yet apparent and is on the backburner.
You aren't wrong in quoting Jangles in saying that TNT will be made available, but I don't think that those mods would be a very good way of implementing TNT.
 
The top minecraft servers are at the top because they have a zero tolerance for greifing. We have the same policy towards griefing here. To be honest, you just got here, so you wouldnt have access to TNT anyway. TNT is going to hurt the server way more than help it. If I remember correctly, when the mods broke down because of the move from alpha to beta, massive amounts of griefing took place. Before you complain about not having TNT, ask yourself this: Would you rather be able to dig faster, or have everything blown up by a griefer? Yeah, we have bigbrother, but mods cant be babysitting 24/7. We havnt allowed TNT ever. We have never had alot of griefing. If our system for TNT ain't broke, don fix it.
 
I don't think he gets it...

I will post pictures to help.

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666.jpg


447px_Your_argument_is_invalid_Bowelmovement_of_Pics-s447x600-151162.jpg


prairie_dogs_are_fornicating.jpg


I hope this clarifies things...
 
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